Setting The Table

Episode 10

Yellow Cake, Biscuits, and the Legacy of Black Baking

Deb Freeman (00:04):

A few months ago, I wrote an article about the black community and yellow cake as part of research for the article. I went to Twitter to ask people if they had memories connected with it. And the response was overwhelming. 

People sent me photos of themselves with their moms and their grandmothers, along with stories of how the cake usually set on a dome glass dish. And it was a special tree on birthdays, holidays, and on Sundays. Writing that article confirmed what I already thought: that we have deep cultural traditions that transcend things like region. And secondly, that there's a deep history and legacy of Black bakers, and we need to talk about it more than we already are. 

Welcome to setting the table a podcast about black cuisine and food ways. I'm Deb Freeman. I'm a writer that focuses on African American food ways and the impact those food ways have on how we cook and eat today. 

We're finally at the last episode of our first season, we're ending on a topic that's near and dear to my heart. On this episode, we explore Black baking: those delicious cakes and confections that signal the end of a meal. It's a pretty fitting way to close our season, don't you think? 

Cheryl Day (01:31):

I'm Cheryl Day, I'm calling from Savannah, Georgia, and I own Back In The Day bakery. And I'm also a cookbook author. 

Deb Freeman (01:41):

Cheryl is one of those bakers that makes desserts that look as good as they eat. You know the ones, cakes covered in delicious buttercream, ice singing and delicate flowers or flaky pies with the fruit peeking out. That's my kind of dessert. 

Cheryl Day (01:57):

I guess I consider myself a legacy baker. I develop recipes based on heritage recipes from oral accounts and family lore, old recipe cards. And why I thought that was so important is because I thought it was time to finally shine a light on all of the black women and some men <laugh> that created Southern baking and are responsible for so much of baking. I mean, even ice cream, we had our hand in ice cream, so all those wonderful sweet treats. And I just thought it was time to really pay homage to that part of our culinary history 

Deb Freeman (02:46):

And Cheryl's cookbook, Cheryl day's Treasury of Southern Baking, is a treasure trove of cultural memory through heritage recipes. It was just nominated for a James Beard Award. And I asked Cheryl to share with us how she was able to collect the recipes by calling on her community. 

Cheryl Day (03:04):

I'm very fortunate that my mother was the great storyteller and historian in my family, and so I had a lot of recipes. But really when I reached into the community, I literally would have folks bring stacks and stacks of these church and community cookbooks and just leave them on my doorstep here in Savannah. 

Deb Freeman (03:27):

And for those of you who haven't heard of a community or church cookbook, I asked Cheryl to explain 

Cheryl Day (03:33):

Community and church cookbooks were a great way that organizations would raise money and they were filled. In fact, I think many of the recipes that I really love the most are from some of these unsung heroes that we may never know their name, but they left us these beautiful recipes in those cookbooks. 

Deb Freeman (03:57):

Church cookbooks are more than just recipes. They are a glimpse into what and how a community cooks the next time you're in an antique store. Take a look at the book section, and you'll probably find some. It's an unsung way to take a look at culinary history, but back to Cheryl's cookbook. 

Cheryl Day (04:17):

I mean, it was one of those things that, you know, when word got out that I was writing this type of book, really a lot of folks wanted to pay homage to this and really bring and shine a light on all of these women. And it wasn't as hard as you would think. I think it's just the fact that we just haven't gotten the credit that we deserved. <laugh> 

I think for some reason baking and particularly, and I've obviously in my work, I've given this a lot of thought and I really think the fact that baking is a science. It's something that takes a lot of pride in craft to learn baking. And I think with a lot of things, we didn't get the credit as black folks that we had the talent, you know, the expertise which we did, obviously that gives us power if you give us credit. So I think that a lot of it was here and I just am happy that I'm the person that is bringing and shining some light on these awesome bakers, 

Deb Freeman (05:20):

Shining a light on Black bakers is something that Cheryl takes personally it's in her DNA after all.

Cheryl Day (05:27):

I lovingly say that I am the descendant of Hannah Queen Grub. She was born enslaved somewhere around 1838. Of course these numbers are just sometimes lost throughout history, but that's kind of where we were at. 

She was born in 1838 in Alabama and born enslaved. And she was a, what they called a pastry cook. I guess it was a moment of clarity for me when I discovered that because here I was making biscuits and a lot of the things that my mom described, one in particular, she said that my grandmother was known for making these delightfully colored small cakes. And I became known for making these, what we call old fashioned cupcakes tinted in pastel colors. 

Hannah Queen Grubs lived to be over a hundred years old. She was small and mighty. She was under five feet tall, but I just am so grateful for all of her courage that has given me the opportunity to live the life that I'm living now 

Deb Freeman (06:37):

We've mentioned before how important recipes are in preserving our cultural memories and making sure heritage dishes, don't disappear into the depths of history. And this is a responsibility that Cheryl has taken to heart. 

Cheryl Day (06:49):

Sometimes I get nervous being the keeper of recipes and things that have been passed down because I hope they don't disintegrate <laugh> right in front of my eyes. But yeah, I mean, I think just like so many in our community, in the Black community, we were great storytellers.

And my mom, I should mention, had me more advanced in life. She was 42 when she had me. So she was very careful about making sure that she passed on our family history. I started going to Alabama from the age of eight. I grew up in Los Angeles, as you know, but it was very important for my mom that I did not lose that history because she carried so many recipes with her on a train. She was a part of the Great Migration. And I really think that the courage of all of those folks that moved for greater opportunities gave me the opportunity. And so many of us, the ability to return in my case to return here to the south, 

Deb Freeman (07:56):

In my opinion, Southern food and baking are synonymous. You almost can't separate them. I ask Cheryl for her definition of Southern baking. 

Cheryl Day (08:06):

That is a tough question. I think Southern baking is so rooted in community and celebration. As far as the taste, there's just so much love in the food. And I just think the flavors are very fresh, very seasonal, which, you know, you could say that's also the case in other communities, but I think there's just something about Southern bacon that everybody thinks of with a pie, you know, a fruit pie, a peach pie, old fashioned layer cakes. 

I just think they were deeply rooted in hospitality, community gathering and celebration, whether it was a celebration of life or a wedding or something like that. It's just something that I was always attracted to when I used to come visit my grandmother in the south, how different it was that feeling of close community. And I used to love those gathering tables that had all the different cakes displayed on them. 

Cheryl Day (09:08):

Baking is important to me because I just really want to give it the reverence that it deserves, especially as I said, the Black bakers that created Southern baking. I think it's just important to really let people know how important baking is as a part of American culinary history. And in my opinion, it's something that's really not been given. It's fair due.

 I mean, in the black community and in Southern baking in particular baking and sweets are so integral to the community. And I just don't understand why there's not more of a conversation about baking in particular. And it just seems to be something in my opinion, that needs to be elevated a little bit more and discussed a little bit more. I mean, it was over, gosh, I think 20 something years before the first black woman received a James Beard Award for pastry chef. And there's still just one <laugh> and that's just baffling to me. I mean, the fact of the matter is black folks can do anything that they set their mind to. 

Deb Freeman (10:30):

Cheryl really nails it here. There are still very systemic issues that affect how Black bakers are seen and treated, including how we see ourselves. 

Cheryl Day (10:41):

A lot of it is representation. When I was coming up, I did really have anyone to look up to. So I've really made it my personal quest to make sure that I'm available to folks coming up in the baking world to know that yeah, we're here and we are smart enough to be baking. We can follow the science and we have the pride and the craft. I just think it's really important to bring us into the conversation. 

Deb Freeman (11:13):

Our next guest has no shortage of pride in her craft. She is a baker and food personality with endless enthusiasm in all the things that she does. And she also makes an amazing biscuit, but more on that later, 

Carla Hall (11:28):

My name is Carla Hall. I am a personality on the food network, so I'm a judge. I'm also an author. 

Deb Freeman (11:35):

She's also an amazing chef. Carla stormed onto the scene like our hurricane in 2008 in the New York season of Top Chef, first charming us with her personality and then wowing us with her culinary skills. Her path to where she is now is no less interesting. 

Carla Hall (11:54):

I love to eat. I think that's an entry point for most people. I love to eat. I was very close to my grandmother, although I didn't realize it. Her influence was honestly creating this cook inside of me because when she passed away, I wanted to recreate the dishes that I had no idea how to make. 

At this point, I had been to culinary school. And so I was able to work out the sort of reverse engineer, the recipes. That said, when she was still alive and I had quit my accounting job, and I was in Paris modeling, because that's what you do as the next step. I found the Sunday suppers that my grandmother had at her house. 

When I was growing up, they were recreated by a woman named Elaine Evans, who was from Memphis, Tennessee. And that was with all of these models. And so it became a point of comfort for me. And I think that's when I really started cooking and baking and it was an act of gratitude. And so when you think about why all of the people in your family cook for the people of the family, it's out of love and gratitude and appreciation. 

Deb Freeman (13:03):

Which brings us back to Carla's biscuit, which took form while she was abroad. And since Carla didn't have her family's recipes, she figured it out on her own. 

Carla Hall (13:14):

When I left Paris, I went to London and I had gotten a recipe for scones in an English newspaper. I converted that recipe to the recipe that I use now, but I was thinking back, how can I make this recipe more Like my grandmother's? 

I was chasing this taste and flavor and texture of my grandmother's biscuits. I remember my grandmother making biscuits. I remember her using a rolling pin. I remember her using this biscuit cutter that the top had fallen out. And it was a little hole in the center that was kind of misshapen because it was just thrown into a drawer. I remember all of that. I was not making biscuits at that time. I don't make them like her, but the result is like hers. 

Deb Freeman (14:03):

Let me tell you about these biscuits. I was lucky enough to watch her, make them and then eat them straight from the oven. Once I had them, I realized I had been eating terrible biscuits for years because hers were so far ahead of anything I had had before. To Carla, making good biscuits is a responsibility that she takes very seriously. 

Carla Hall (14:27):

When I'm in places other than my home, I get homesick for certain foods. Biscuits was one of those things. And when you talk to somebody like, oh my gosh, I really want a biscuit. And they will send you to some place that doesn't have good biscuits. You know, they're hard when they cool down, they become weapons and golf balls. So I started asking strangers on the street, “Hey, do you know how to make a good biscuit?” 

And my reason for asking was one: I could teach them how to make a biscuit and two: how to recognize a good biscuit from a Southern black woman. 

I went to people's homes and I made biscuits. It was the least I could do as a southerner in New York City <laugh> as a black woman, let me show you what a great biscuit is. And even teaching people about flour. And most times I realized that they were like, oh my gosh, I've never had a biscuit like this. 

And I have to say everybody's perception of what a good biscuit is, goes back to some point in their life. It could have been their first biscuit at a restaurant. It could have been a friend's biscuit, a parent's biscuit, whoever made the biscuits for you. But what I was trying to get them to say, I need you to up your game in your expectations of a biscuit. And that was my service. 

Deb Freeman (15:50):

I'd like to thank her for her service. I can personally attest that people do need to know. As a TV personality, Carla is in a prominent position to represent Black cooks and bakers. I asked her what she thought about that legacy. 

Carla Hall (16:05):

When I think about Black bakers. And, and I don't even think when you think about the legacy of Black bakers, that they even call themselves bakers, they were just making delicious cakes and foods and confectionary. When I think about all of the sweets, that would line the banquette at my grandmother's house. And you go to somebody's house in the repass and all of those different cakes and the ingenuity to use cola or like 7-up and all of those things, because you needed to make a way when I think about just making something out of nothing. That's what I think about when I think of Black bakers.

I was doing a cameo recently, and this woman wanted me to do a video for her grandmother. She was 91, 91 or 92, and she showed me a cake that was sent by the 91 year old woman who was still baking for the family and sending the cakes to the great grandkids. 

Carla Hall (17:05):

She had 23 great grandkids. And I got a little teary when I was watching the video, requesting a video from me. I'm like, oh my gosh, you've just given me a gift because I started to visualize my grandmother's hands and how she would make these cakes and how her fingers were like spatula in cleaning the bowl and how this efficiency of movement, but not only the thing that we get from a cookbook, but the thing that is a part of them, like the temperature of the oven, because you don't have a thermometer, you may not have an oven that's working all that well. You're moving it to the place that you know is gonna give you the best result of the cake and you have those older pan. And so when I think about Black bakers, I think about the ingenuity. I think about making it happen because you're baking for someone you love. 

And so now when I talk to people about making breads and cakes and cookies, I always have to tell them, this is what you're looking for visually, because they don't get it naturally. They don't have that thing that we know you have to cook this to a certain point. 

Deb Freeman (18:18):

Carla puts an emphasis on the look of her baked dishes, because it's true. There's something about the look that some traditional cakes or pies that are baked by Black bakers that just sets them apart. There's some color on it. There's a crisp to it, but not too much. It's a bit hard to describe, but you know it, when you see it. Carla shared a story with us about a time she had to save her own peach cobbler on her national TV show. 

Carla Hall (18:46):

I remember the first time I was making peach cobbler on The Chew. I remember the executive producer, He said, “Carla, you make a face” because there's a culinary team making your food. But then when I got ready to eat it, I would make a face. Like I didn't like it. Like it wasn't mine because it wasn't mine. It was a culinary team making it. I mean, they were great. They were amazing cooks, but this one particular time, he said,” well, Carla, what I want you to do is go and look at your food so that you can communicate to them, how to get closest to the food that you would like,” because I was so focused on just being a good host that I forgot that part of this experience was actually showing my food. So this one particular time we were making a beach cobbler and I, I was like, oh shoot. 

Carla Hall (19:31):

I forgot to run into the kitchen. And I, I don't have time. Let me run down there. And I said, oh, can I see my cobbler? And I go, and I look at it. I'm like, um, and what I see is a blonde pie with orange peaches. I, I don't even have to tell you some orange peaches and some juice. And I said, oh my God, I don't know what we're gonna do because this pie looks like a white person made it. And I <laugh>. I was like, oh my, I had no filters because I was running around. And the lead culinary producer looked at me and she said, a white person did make it. I said, oh my God, I'm so sorry. But it can't look like that. Black people will not trust me if the pie comes out and looks like with these orange soupy peaches and a blonde crust, I said, okay, this is what you need to do. 

Carla Hall (20:16):

So you have to cook the peaches until like, they're like a deep, like almost light caramel brown, because all of that sugar goes into the peaches. And then this juice that you have that actually cooks down and becomes part of the flavor. And so the crust, and when it Browns, it becomes like a dumpling because it is crisp and delicious. And then it marries with the juice. And even if you don't like peaches, there are people who don't even like peaches, but they will eat the juice and the crust because it is this sweet dumpling. That is so amazing. And that's what I grew up with. And that's what I was expecting. And that's what I forgot to communicate because I wasn't thinking of a different kind of a pie. 

Deb Freeman (21:00):

This is one of the reasons why I love Carla so much. She's someone who will be vocal about her craft. And she's also willing to go the extra mile to make sure that Black food is represented in a certain way. I ask Carla why she thought the accomplishments of Black baking is often overlooked. 

Carla Hall (21:19):

I think it's because people aren't associating this delicious cake with the Black baker. So when you line up all of these bakers and you have somebody making a cake and you just happen to pick the ones that are the Black bakers, with the depth of flavor and this texture and all of the components that we love and that we've been loving for generations. 

So there's that generational history that they are passing along in their baked goods that people think, oh, this is just good. No, it is just good because of the people. And you cannot separate the people from the culture, from the legacy that they have been sharing through these baked goods. And I think that when we come back to that, when we actually understand that this is also a part of soul food, it's also a part of a person, it's not by accident. Then we can separate the Black baker right now. It's just a something delicious. 

Deb Freeman (22:20):

It's a dilemma that has frustrated me for a long time. As someone who writes about Southern and Black food, I love exploring how Black food built the foundation for American cuisines as we know it, and I love learning about baking traditions that stem from Black kitchens. But I also want us to have more of a claim on those legacies as well. When thinking about what excites her the most today about Black baking Carla brings up a recent regional discovery of hers. 

Carla Hall (22:47):

Have you heard of stickies? 

Deb Freeman (22:49):

What is a sticky? 

Carla Hall (22:50):

Exactly. So I was in North Carolina. I was in Charlotte and I was walking down the street and this, I see this car go down the street, circle back. And they're like, Carla, is that you? The baking girl?”

Carla Hall (23:04):

And so of course they stopped and I had a conversation. I'm like, Hey, how are you? And then the husband who was driving, he's like, Hey, do you know how to make stickies? And in my brain, it was like, ah, stickies, what are stickies? Oh, it's dough. And then you roll it out. And then you put some butter and some sugar on, then you roll it up and then you cut it and you bake it. I'm like, wait, what, what kind of dough? I don't know. It's just dough. 

So being in the south and talking to, particularly in the Carolinas and talking to them about it, what I sussed out was it's a biscuit dough that is rolled out thinly. You make the dough, you chill it, you roll it out. And then you put butter and it can be flavored butter. And then you do sugar and then you roll it up. 

Carla Hall (23:52):

You chill it again. And then you cut it like cinnamon rolls. And then you lay it in a pan. You bake it halfway. And then you do this sweetened, evaporated milk on it. And then you do like cinnamon and sugar and all the things, right? Those are stickies. And these people were my temporary neighbors. When our house was being renovated, we were living in different cities, 30 days at a time. And so I would talk to people. I had these neighbors last night, I got a text from them randomly, as we were talking about it, which is why I was top of mind, Carla, we miss your stickies. I had never made a sticky, but I had made biscuits. I knew what I wanted in a biscuit. So I did the thing the same way, but I needed them to tell me about the flavor. 

Carla Hall (24:35):

So I didn't know, I didn't have a reference point for these stickies. So then while I was down there, I just started asking people, do you know stickies? “Hey, yeah. We know stickies. What we do with stickies is we use it like roll it, thin it and make it as a crust. And that's the crust of our pie. Then we put some stuff in it.” 

It's like a thing. And so I would love for some of these desserts from Black bakers to come back because it is part of our legacy, which if we don't talk about it, they're being lost. And one of the things that I really push is for people, no matter what your culture is, but to show us your culture through your food. 

And sometimes I see Black bakers pushing away from that because they don't value it. They don't value it because no one else is valuing them, right? So they feel like they have to go French, or they have to go this other route to validate themselves and their talent through something that is proven. But I do see people putting a lot of ingredients from the diaspora into their baked goods and showing them very proudly, which I love. 

Deb Freeman (25:46):

Carla and Cheryl are carrying the mantle of Black bakers. And there's no shortage of other bakers around the country who are carrying on those traditions as well. And I look forward to seeing what the next generation does with desserts. I'm definitely happy to volunteer as a taste tester. 

Deb Freeman (26:05):

And that brings us to a close in the first season of Setting The Table. I hope you enjoyed our look into Black cuisine foodways, as much as we did, this has truly been an amazing season. I've learned so much from all our guests. The future of Black foodways is truly in good hands. 

I'd like to thank everyone who has listened and been with us this first season. I'm truly grateful that y'all have taken the time out to listen to this podcast. I'd also like to thank the amazing team at Whetstone for putting this together. I really do have the best podcast team that anyone could ask for. 

Deb Freeman (26:41):

This has been Setting the table. I'd like to thank my guests Cheryl Day and Carla Hall, follow Cheryl on Instagram @cherylday and learn more about her bakery and her cookbooks at backinthedaybakery.com. 

You can also follow Carla on instagram @carlaphall and learn more about her work at carlahall.com.

Setting the Table is part of Whetstone Radio Collective. Thank you to the Setting The Table team: Producer, Marvin Yeuh; Audio Editor, Evan Lindsay; Researcher, Haven Ogbaselase; and Intern, Kai Stone. 

I'd also like to thank Whetstone founder, Steven Satterfield; Whetstone Radio Collective Head of Podcast, Celine Glasier; Sound Engineer, Max Kotelchuck; Associate Producer, Quentin Lebeau; Production Assistant, Amalissa Uytingco; and Sound Intern, Simon Lavender. Cover art created by Whetstone Art Director, Alexandra Bowman. 

You can learn more about this podcast at whetstoneradio.com, on Instagram and Twitter @whetstoneradio, and subscribe to our YouTube channel Whetstone Radio Collective. For more podcast, video content, you can learn more about all things happening Whetstone at whetstonemagazine.com. 

Until next time, I'm Deb Freeman.